A debater complains that I slight accuracy in favor of tradition, in answer to my argument that the many different renderings of a particular Greek word or phrase in the various modern versions demonstrates change for change's sake. He insists that the accurate translation of the word is the main thing and that I overlook that by such a list, as if I treat all the words as identical. Since this is hardly the case the discussion can get very frustrating.
It occurred to me today that perhaps what causes the confusion is that I treat the KJV choice as the most accurate. I assume it. Where I see a need for a change it isn't because the KJV's word is inaccurate, it's usually because its meaning has changed over time so that now it means something different to us.
The word "corn" as in a "corn of wheat," for instance, is not part of our language at all now, and I can't see that anything is lost in this case by replacing it with "grain." There is no question of accuracy versus tradition here, both are accurate. In the case of "strain at a gnat" versus "strain out a gnat" it seems obvious to me that "out" is correct and "at" is not (Orthodox Jews still strain their soup in case they might accidentally swallow unclean meat such as a gnat), and in this case it's not the fault of the KJV translators (who had "out" in their first edition according to something I read), but was a printing error. There are those who argue for "at" on the ground that it's in the language and the culture now, and while I consider that to be a very strong argument in some cases, I don't in this case, especially since the two words are so close in sound there's no chance anyone will mistake the reference when it is quoted. So this is one place where one could say tradition is being wrongly put ahead of accuracy.
We also don't use the word "virtue" as it is used in Luke 8 where Jesus said he felt "virtue" go out of him when the woman touched his garment, and unless "virtue" carries special meaning that is lacking in "power" or "strength" I would like to see it changed to "strength." All are accurate enough, the question is which conveys the meaning best to our ears today. Burgon thinks the RV's "power" is a poor choice over "virtue" and perhaps "virtue" did carry a meaning then that is now lost to us, even because "power" has been substituted in its place. That's a sad thought if so and if that's the case I could be persuaded that "virtue" should be retained.
But the KJV's choice was the most accurate at the time. They were certainly aware of the possible alternatives in "power" and "strength" and in fact that is why I think it's important to be very cautious in making changes to the KJV. What looks like a needed change may simply be the result of our own ignorance of nuances in the KJV term that should be taught rather than replaced by a less accurate word. This is Burgon's argument against substituting "love" for "charity" for the Greek agape for instance, and I think he makes a very good case that "charity" is the most accurate word, and "love" is very inaccurate. Unfortunately, since the substitution of "love" has stuck in many of the new versions, the subtleties in the word "charity" are even more remote to us than ever. But that's a whole discussion unto itself.
In any case I don't put tradition ahead of accuracy, I just don't agree with the debater about which is the most accurate translation, as he would often side with one of the modern versions against the KJV. And since the comparisons of six or eight different versions usually show quite a few different translations for a single Greek word from one version to another, the idea that they were chosen for accuracy of translation rings hollow in any case.
Again, I ALWAYS assume the KJV translators made the most accurate choice. It would be very strange if they hadn't. At the same time I accept that there are some places where the KJV needs to be corrected -- but that becomes an issue only when I come to those places. Otherwise I assume the KJV translation is the superior translation.
But I suspect that this very position means to a defender of the modern versions only that I must be KJV-Only after all since I put the KJV above all the others, and that automatically means to them putting tradition above accuracy. Apparently there's no way to get around their assumption. There's no such thing in their mental set as a fair assessment that the KJV is simply BETTER -- meaning a more accurate translation among other things -- than all the modern versions, because they are so convinced that's not the case. So they have to treat it as an irrational prejudice. With such a clash of basic assumptions fair debate is really not possible.
Just because the KJV is the best doesn't mean it can't be improved. It's best in comparison with the versions which are based on bad Greek texts and translated according to bad Greek and English grammar and misunderstanding of idioms -- according to J W Burgon, whose arguments always impress me with his clear grasp of these things. (This assessment of Burgon gets me accused of "worshipping" Burgon, too, rather than recognized as fairly making a rational assessment of his superior judgment. Really, there is no way to debate any of this, it's all going to be twisted against me). Anyway, since the other versions are that bad the KJV doesn't have to be perfection itself to be better.
But also I do think there are probably some instances in which a KJV reading should be retained simply because of tradition -- that is, because it's been established for so long in English culture and literature -- but I don't know if this necessarily involves a sacrifice of accuracy until I encounter such instances.
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added 3/7 - 6 am
I see I'm being discussed by this debater at another forum. A poster has read my blog and opined that the only reason I like "strength" over "power" is that Burgon opposes "power." This is not in fact the case. I don't like "power" myself in that particular place and like "strength" better, based on the context of the passage alone, and I suspect Burgon would not have liked "strength" either, so Euthymius is just making up stuff. I also said I could be talked into "virtue" if there are good reasons for it. I also say, however, that "power" is acceptable. THE NUMBER OF TIMES the KJV translates a Greek word by a particular English word is irrelevant, by the way (7 times for "strength") as it is the context which determines which they choose, not being blind mechanical one-for-one translators as Westcott and Hort were, which is something Burgon criticized them for.
As for "corn" of wheat, I thought it might still be current British and failed to check. My bad, but it did occur to me. So I'm for an Americanized Bible.
Everyone seems terribly concerned about the 36,000 changes Burgon reports -- I run across this number in many places, not just in Burgon. Unfortunately it doesn't show up in the index to Burgon's Revision Revised. I note that someone found it quoted by Bishop Wordsworth there however. The usual way it is phrased is something like "36,000 changes, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHICH were unnecessary and in fact changes for the worse." If I failed to add that clause it would have been a rare occurrence but of course something someone looking for faults would pounce on. Burgon offers counts for smaller portions of the scriptures as well, such as the gospel of Luke where he finds an enormous number of changes for the worse.
AND A LAST WORD on the fact that the KJV translators ALSO made a great number of similar type changes to the previous Bibles as the 1881 revision made in the KJV. The answer to this is very simple: Accuracy is the important thing, right? And in this case too I assume the KJV translators to have produced the most accurate rendering unless shown otherwise (in the very few instances where that might be the case). This assumption is based on their demonstrable superiority, both the number and quality of the translators, plus their faithfulness to their commission to preserve as much as possible of the Bishop's Bible in particular but the earlier English Bibles in general, which is a RULE THEY TOOK SERIOUSLY AND FOLLOWED, unlike the revisers of 1881.
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Oh and somebody comments that "charity" and "virtue" are "Vulgatisms" as if that alone disqualifies them. (The Vulgate was the Latin translation that had survived for centuries.) Odd to my mind how they complain about the fact that this Latin translation was involved in the KJV. English has plenty of Latin influences, it's not as if it's an alien imposition on the language.
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Hi Folks,
ReplyDeleteThe AV was based on the best text, and the skilled translation, and if the preservation source came from Greek, or Latin, that was fine.
Faith, some of the AV defenders paint themselves into a Vulgate corner, not realizing that the Received Text fully and providentially integrated the preservation of the fountainhead Greek and the Latin lines preservation.
In response to that, the opponents of the Reformation Bible (TR and AV) will often go -- "aha - Vulgate influence".
A big part of the problem is in modern AV and TR defenders (Donald Waite and company included). If you go back to Frederick Nolan and other early pure Bible defenders there is simply no such confusion.
This type of misdirection, on various sides, is one reason why the pure Bible "debate" is often held on a not very high level.
Shalom,
Steven Avery
Thanks for your comment, Steven. I have problems with both sides of this argument. I don't see any reason to reject the contribution of the Vulgate to the KJV. I also know the Septuagint was a reality and existed from 300 years or so BC and I don't see why they have to act as if it didn't. But then I'm not a "pure Bible" defender either. I'm not even a KJVO, as my main concern is what has happened to the Bible since the faithless revisers of 1881 got hold of it and I'm not against revision.
ReplyDeleteFaith, we are agreeing on the issue of the thread that I was emphasizing:
ReplyDelete"I don't see any reason to reject the contribution of the Vulgate to the KJV"
My point is that you are right on this, and many AV defenders are taking an untenable position.
And similarly AV defenders often take a difficult position on the "Septuatint" or "LXX" - largely based on the confusing and contradictory definitions of the term (even in standard modern scholarship). Then, two sides end up talking past each other as trains in the night.
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The first issue is whether the Traditional Text, the Received Text, the Reformation Bible, leaving aside the possible differences in the terms .. is an essentially pure Bible. While the 1881 disaster fabricated an essentially corrupt new text. This basic question precedes issues like the position of the AV, and the concept of revision.
Shalom,
Steven Avery
Thanks again, Steven.
ReplyDeleteThe first issue is whether the Traditional Text, the Received Text, the Reformation Bible, leaving aside the possible differences in the terms .. is an essentially pure Bible. While the 1881 disaster fabricated an essentially corrupt new text. This basic question precedes issues like the position of the AV, and the concept of revision.
For purposes of my blog, the revision of 1881 precedes everything else. I only get involved in the questions about the "pure Bible" when someone makes an issue of them, and even then I probably should avoid them. Whether the KJV and its underlying texts were perfection or not isn't to my mind necessary to establish before showing that the 1881 work was a disaster for the church. Seems to me all the Bibles based on 1881 in any way need to be shown to be corrupted, and THEN I can think about an uncorrupted Bible.